tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post1368061681280529789..comments2023-10-21T03:56:17.913-07:00Comments on Buffyverse Comic Reviews: The Master is BackPatShandhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comBlogger36125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-30986967518977837022008-02-29T13:06:00.000-08:002008-02-29T13:06:00.000-08:00It would be very helpful. Especially as the man's ...It would be very helpful. Especially as the man's explicitly stated he considers canon to be "key", and that he wants people to be able to know for sure what's happened before and what's not. <BR/><BR/>And I'd say knowing if "Ring of Fire" took place or not is pretty darn essential for the character of Giles, for instance.<BR/><BR/><BR/>From all I can gather, though, "Long Night's Journey" seems to be assumed to be canon on the same logic as "Tales" is, so, unless he states otherwise, I'm going to keep thinking of it as such. Not that he's likely to ever reference it, but... it'd be nifty if he ever did.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-53889097684931842082008-02-29T12:51:00.000-08:002008-02-29T12:51:00.000-08:00Hahaha yes I am a living commercial. I agree abou...Hahaha yes I am a living commercial. I agree about the canonical list, though. It would be helpful.PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-48190617916264506722008-02-29T12:31:00.000-08:002008-02-29T12:31:00.000-08:00Okay, you've sold me, I'll buy'em, both of them.No...Okay, you've sold me, I'll buy'em, both of them.<BR/><BR/>Now, if Joss could only make that list of what's canon and what's not once and for all... Grr!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-71128936984133884812008-02-29T11:29:00.000-08:002008-02-29T11:29:00.000-08:00Yeah, I'll link those up in a second. Hell, I'll ...Yeah, I'll link those up in a second. Hell, I'll make a new post of it! (lol) Check the front page in a moment.PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-65468486921886342052008-02-29T11:25:00.000-08:002008-02-29T11:25:00.000-08:00Even more so than Joss's, Lynch's comic writing ta...Even more so than Joss's, Lynch's comic writing takes time to read. Every panel--especially with Urru as the artist--overflows with meaning, little gags, and things you might not catch until the third or fourth read. It's a main reason, IMO, why the commentary features in his TPBs are so great. There is just so much to comment on.PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-87737638366213009042008-02-29T11:23:00.000-08:002008-02-29T11:23:00.000-08:00Also, I haven't seen a review of "Origin" here, bu...Also, I haven't seen a review of "Origin" here, but I'd be interested in reading yours. I've always quite wanted someone to re-draw it so it could form part of a proper, official canon, whilte it's not the best of reads I love how it incorporates Joss' moviescript into what little we know from the show of Buffy's pre-Sunnydale years. (I'm an inane completist) Could you link me your amazon-reviews?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-84925897151873383852008-02-29T11:18:00.000-08:002008-02-29T11:18:00.000-08:00To be honest, the concept initially put me off - t...To be honest, the concept initially put me off - the puppet thing was fun once (I love Smile Time, it's probably among my top fifteen episodes) but when you repeat it it just gets old and gimmick'y. Which is why I never found someone to borrow it to me.<BR/><BR/>However, I'll make a point of getting my hands on it now, as well as Asylum. I'll put them in my shelf and try not to be too obsessed with whether or not it is canon. (See, this is why I can't buy non-canon-stuff. My organizing freak-tendencies FORCE me to put things related to each other together. But they also FORCE me to not have stuff that's canon near stuff that's not. If I owned both, my brain would thus implode.) After all, I have had "Long Night's Journey" there without short-circuting for quite som time now. I quite liked Asylum, but I only read it once, and rather quickly-like, so I think I should give that another chance too as it didn't strike me as quite as awesome as everybody seems to think it is.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-56585531092538834962008-02-29T08:21:00.000-08:002008-02-29T08:21:00.000-08:00Couldn't agree more about the vampires. I roasted...Couldn't agree more about the vampires. I roasted them for that in my review, but I don't know if it's posted here. I have way more at my Amazon account. But yeah, about Shadow Puppets...<BR/><BR/>Even if it is never officially recognized as canon, get it. It's better than some of the stuff that made it onto the air. IMO, "Asylum" is better, but "Shadow Puppets" is one of the best examples of a story working better as a comic than as a television show. "Smile Time" is one of my least favorite episodes ever, but I really like "Shadow Puppets." It's hilarious, has huge character moments for Spike and Lorne, as well as Beck and Tok. It's really centered around a theme and (even though the fourth issue had a decrease in quality) its a more focused work than anything we've got since.PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-33999821585312307602008-02-29T05:51:00.000-08:002008-02-29T05:51:00.000-08:00I will retain my judgement on that until I've read...I will retain my judgement on that until I've read a scene in After the Fall where Spike and George meet, and they can be inferred to know each other, but yeah, I think you could probably think of those as canon.<BR/><BR/>I hesitate to accept RoF and Haunted for personal reasons, too, in addition to the (much more important) logical ones - because if I do, I have to accept anything that's been written by the shows' writers, and quite frankly, parts of it isn't all that... But I certainly wouldn't mind hearing a statement of Joss' along the lines of what he said about Origin on those two.<BR/><BR/>I hope Asylum and Shadow Puppets (the latter of which I haven't read, by the way) get canonized, because then I'll have an excuse to buy them. (I only buy the canon stuff. I'm still torn by "Origin", haven't bought it, kind of want to, but there are those damned stupidly drawn vampires...)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-66320574423033811822008-02-29T05:30:00.000-08:002008-02-29T05:30:00.000-08:00I agree for the most part. I think the only REAL ...I agree for the most part. I think the only REAL example of a somewhat debatable canonical status is, as you mentioned, Brian Lynch's "Spike" stuff. While one could argue for "Haunted" or "Ring of Fire," its impossible to prove unless you have Joss in the room.<BR/><BR/>But "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" are different. Betta George originated in those comics and, in "After the Fall," he says he's chilled with a good vampire before. So either he knows Angel, or "Asylum" and "Shadow Puppets" happened. Also, on Brian's myspace, after going back and forth on it, he said we might as well accept them as canon. "Shadow Puppets" breaks some of the fourth wall, but not enough that it wouldn't deserve canonical status. It gives us great character development on Spike and gives us context for Betta George.PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-45376398978332349722008-02-29T04:33:00.000-08:002008-02-29T04:33:00.000-08:00It's been too long, I can't recall how well the ch...It's been too long, I can't recall how well the characters are nailed. But seeing as Joss was going to be more involved on the writing side and then figured it wasn't necessary because the other guy did a great job, I'm assuming that means it has his stamp of approval, at least.<BR/><BR/>I would rank "Long Night's Journey" as canon in the same way "Tales" are. It has Joss' name on it. That puts it above "Ring of Fire", "Reunion", "Haunted", etc, which just have names of other Slayerverse writers. To me, that's where the line goes. If it has Joss name on it, or if Joss has publicly said it is canon, then it's canon. I wouldn't mind to see Haunted canonized, and my only problem with Ring of Fire is that it really didn't get Drusilla at all, otherwise it was a smart story with a plot that felt like it probably would've happened.<BR/><BR/>I don't care one fig what fans consider canon. Canon is what the CREATOR considers canon. Canon is what won't be contradicted when new stuff is made by the person behind the story/stories - that's the only relevant way of defining it. That is canon, and it's got absolutely nothing to do with what individuals decide they like or not.<BR/><BR/>Put simply, if something potentially can have an impact on later stories, then it's canon. That means that only stories Joss considers canon are canon. Not stuff by other writers, just stuff by him. Of course, there are stories which we can't KNOW if are considered canon by Joss or not, and these are the problems. Lynch's earlier Spike-stuff would be a good example of this kind of thing.<BR/><BR/>Naturally, fans are free to not take into account anything they'd like not to take into account when enjoying the stories. You can buy the first five seasons of Buffy and ignore the existance of the rest if you'd like, and that could work fine for you. That doesn't change what's canon, 'cause that's not a personal thing. Canon is what defines what can effect future events with these characters in this world. Which is, really, purely dependent on Joss, and nothing else. So I find that his name being on the cover of something is the closest you get to a what's canon-stamp up till the day where he publishes a List Of Canon Stuff or something.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-842308789080949882008-02-28T13:35:00.000-08:002008-02-28T13:35:00.000-08:00Loki said... "While the story in and of itself doe...Loki said... "While the story in and of itself doesn't really Impress me - as is to be expected from a story limited to keep the status quo of the show from the get go to the finish-line - I quite like some minor points in it and really would not mind seeing it officially recognized as canon."<BR/><BR/>How about the characters and the dialogue? Does all that ring true?<BR/><BR/>Loki said... "Or at least the kind of pseudo-canon "The Origin" has gotten from Joss. Then again, with Joss' name on it, I guess it doesn't really need the official recognition, it's canon by default until he states otherwise. In my head, anyway."<BR/><BR/>Mine too. Only thing is, I think about 87.5% of the fandom would disagree with us. Some fans don't even recognize "Tales..." and "Fray" as canon, even though they blatantly are. I'd put "Long Night's Journey" in the same category as "Ring of Fire," "Haunted," "Asylum," and "Shadow Puppets." They're by, or at least supervised by a person of authority within the 'verse. To ME they're canon, but their status as such is so debatable that I'd have no quarrel with someone who stated that they were NOT canon. With most things, "canon" isn't open to interpretation, but I think it has to be with the items that I mentioned because of the following reasons:<BR/><BR/>a. While they aren't vital to the story, they add a layer of context (particularly Asylum and Shadow Puppets) that increases the impact of other canonical works.<BR/><BR/>b. They're, as I said, written by or outlined by an authority within the 'verse.<BR/><BR/>c. They don't contradict canon.<BR/><BR/>Loki said... "Looking forward to seeing you review it - I'm assuming there'll be a review? I've not re-read it in ages, and will make a point of doing just that now so I can comment on it if I feel the desire to. ^^"<BR/><BR/>There indeed will be. I'll be posting reviews from some old stuff here pretty soon. When I get that TPB (and the ultra rare "Haunted" which I won for $2.27!!!! on EBay), I'll post reviews for them.PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-24451331515336847272008-02-28T13:18:00.000-08:002008-02-28T13:18:00.000-08:00While the story in and of itself doesn't really Im...While the story in and of itself doesn't really Impress me - as is to be expected from a story limited to keep the status quo of the show from the get go to the finish-line - I quite like some minor points in it and really would not mind seeing it officially recognized as canon. Or at least the kind of pseudo-canon "The Origin" has gotten from Joss. Then again, with Joss' name on it, I guess it doesn't really need the official recognition, it's canon by default until he states otherwise. In my head, anyway.<BR/><BR/>Looking forward to seeing you review it - I'm assuming there'll be a review? I've not re-read it in ages, and will make a point of doing just that now so I can comment on it if I feel the desire to. ^^Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-42184470994634106402008-02-28T06:35:00.000-08:002008-02-28T06:35:00.000-08:00Ummmmmmm.... good question. It has Joss's name on...Ummmmmmm.... good question. It has Joss's name on it and all, but in the Fray introduction, he said that "Fray" was the first comic he ever wrote.... and "Long Night's Journey" came out before Fray.<BR/><BR/>But since it has his name on it and he likely provided at the very least an outline, I think the rule is that it's canon if it doesn't contradict the series. I'll be able to tell in a few days, as the book is being shipped to my house as we speak!PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-4118510713127651022008-02-28T06:01:00.000-08:002008-02-28T06:01:00.000-08:00I guess it could be explained like that... wouldn'...I guess it could be explained like that... wouldn't be crazy about either explanation, especially not the latter (gods I'm sick of Andrew), but yeah.<BR/><BR/>The Tales... being canon, yes, I agree they've always been considered so, but I don't think Joss has ever explicitly stated that they are? Which was what I meant.<BR/><BR/>By the way, "Long Night's Journey", that's considered canon as well, right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-23793157359497669302008-02-27T18:47:00.000-08:002008-02-27T18:47:00.000-08:00I agree. I remember Joss saying something along t...I agree. I remember Joss saying something along the lines of this. "If you need to squeeze it into TV terms, an issue is an act of an episode." I've been taking each arc and one-shot as an episode. Like "Long Way Home" is 8.01, "The Chain" is 8.02, "No Future for You" is 8.03, "Anywhere But Here" is 8.04, "A Beautiful Sunset" is 8.05, "Wolves at the Gate" is 8.06, and the Joss Whedon/Karl Moline "Buffy meets Fray" arc is 8.07.<BR/><BR/>*sly wink*<BR/><BR/>Loki said... ""After the Fall", in comparison, is something quite different. It's not trying to be a season. In an on-screen-world it'd probably be a tv-movie or two, or possibly a miniseries. It'd not be a season 6. "<BR/><BR/>I agree again. Brian stopped calling in "Season Six" early in the game because it's very, very "miniseries/movie" ish.<BR/><BR/>Loki said... "I just re-read that Dracula-story in "Tales of the Vampires", by the way, seeing as I'm expecting it to be once and for all canonized soon based on the front pages we've seen of the upcoming S8-arc, and wow, it wasn't really quite as cheesy as I remembered."<BR/><BR/>Once and for all? Well, "Tales of the Vampires" and "Tales of the Slayers" always have been canon.<BR/><BR/>Loki said... "If you accept that the BvD-episode was canon, which is painful but true, it was actually quite beautiful in its own way. Though I'm having issues with the "one year"-stay Xander's supposed to have had with Drac - that'll really push the timeframe of when Season 8 takes place back, won't it?"<BR/><BR/>Nope. Dracula said "this past year." That doesn't imply that he spent a year with Xander. It implies that being with Xander (in a non gay way, methinks) contributed to the good year he had. Like I could, for instance, meet a girl in June. In October, I could be like, "Random Girl, this past year with you has been great" without having spent an entire year with her.<BR/><BR/>They'll either do that or go the "Well, ANDREW was the narrator of 'Antique' so thats why he exaggerated!" route lol.PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-39247606935774704662008-02-27T17:58:00.000-08:002008-02-27T17:58:00.000-08:00Yeah, Amy was lying. That's Joss' own cover-up-sto...Yeah, Amy was lying. That's Joss' own cover-up-story about those continuity-issues, too, and the only one that makes sense.<BR/><BR/>As for calling the Season 8-stuff episodes - I really feel like it is applicable. Normally I'd agree about the media being too different, but Joss et Co is making a huge effort at making this be "the TV-show, just not on TV". They call it "season 8", first and foremost. He's additionally explicitly giving it a TV-season-like structure, with episode-plots, a season-villain, a big season opening and (we've been promised) a big season finale. In lieu of this, I feel that calling the stories episodes make complete sense, despite being shorter. I mean, if they made a Buffy web-series with 15-minute-episodes, we'd call those episodes, and these stories, especially the 4-issue-ones, could easily fill a quarter of an on-screen-hour. The point isn't the lenght, the point is the function within the season. And both the one-shots and the four-issue-arcs serve the same functions as episodes and double-episodes did on the tv-show, inside a story-format very much the same.<BR/><BR/>That doesn't mean we should delude ourselves into thinking they're the same thing. But Dark Horse and Whedon are making strong efforts at keeping it as close as possible, and ignoring that in debating and considering it doesn't really work for me. This comic book is explicitly meant to be seen as a season after the previous one, and builds on expectations, rythms and conventions based on being a season like the other ones. Thus calling the individual pieces of it "episodes" make perfect sense. To me, at least.<BR/><BR/>"After the Fall", in comparison, is something quite different. It's not trying to be a season. In an on-screen-world it'd probably be a tv-movie or two, or possibly a miniseries. It'd not be a season 6. True, there is some precedent for this kind of a season on Angel, with season 4, but even season 4 followed a lot of season conventions that "After the Fall" isn't really going for. They're not going for the slow-paced intermission-episodes, they're not going for the tangent-storylines (except for with "First Night", I guess), what they're going for is one long tight story. Which is why I'm happy they themselves use the term "chapters" in the book, 'cause that's what it is. On "After the Fall", I'd completely agree with you. On "Season 8", while I see and agree to your basic point, I think it's enough of an exception to the rule that the "episode"-term is useful when discussing it.<BR/><BR/>I just re-read that Dracula-story in "Tales of the Vampires", by the way, seeing as I'm expecting it to be once and for all canonized soon based on the front pages we've seen of the upcoming S8-arc, and wow, it wasn't really quite as cheesy as I remembered. If you accept that the BvD-episode was canon, which is painful but true, it was actually quite beautiful in its own way. Though I'm having issues with the "one year"-stay Xander's supposed to have had with Drac - that'll really push the timeframe of when Season 8 takes place back, won't it? I mean, Xander seems so comfortable running things, he needs to have been out of the hex and at it for a few months by "The Long Way Home".Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-89987284817847513532008-02-21T15:05:00.000-08:002008-02-21T15:05:00.000-08:00I think we're meant to believe that Twilight is so...I think we're meant to believe that Twilight is someone we've met before, because it seems as though the the mask bit is really inconsequential (and a little stupid) otherwise. If it IS someone we know, I'm betting it's somebody that everyone will instantly recognize upon the big reveal, otherwise there's no point to the build-up. Graham was little more than "Riley's Buddy #1," so I doubt it would be him. I could see it being Riley with the military connection, but I think I, too, would have a hard time swallowing it unless it was pulled off really well. More likely, I think it's someone who we may know but without such a personal connection as someone like Riley or Angel, because it didn't seem like Twilight was terribly familiar with Buffy during his assault.<BR/><BR/><I>"Smile Time?? You're putting SMILE TIME in your category of inexcusable episodes?! Dude, honestly, I like your reviews, you're a smart guy, but in this instance you're crazy."</I><BR/><BR/>I like <I>Smile Time</I> as well, but I think that it's only good for so long before the sheen starts to wear off. Each time I've watched the episode since it's original airing, I've liked it just a little bit less. Sure, there are the classic bits, like the Spike/Angel fight, but it really is a gimmick episode, pure and simple (and not one that ends up being a classic, like <I>Once More, With Feeling</I>).<BR/><BR/>On another note, <I>Buffy vs. Dracula</I> is one of the episodes I hate most from the entire 144-episode run of <I>Buffy the Vampire Slayer</I>. It certainly has it's moments, but overall I consider it little more than continuity-bending filler. While episodes like <I>Beer Bad</I> were good in a so-cheesy-how-can-you-not-love-it sort of way, <I>Buffy vs. Dracula</I> doesn't really have any of that, so it starts to fall apart under far less scrutiny than <I>Beer Bad</I>.<BR/><BR/>I think my favorite premiere has been <I>Lessons</I>. Not for any particular reason, but because the first time I saw the ending, I flipped the heck out at both the awesomeness of the scene and the potential (no pun intended) it laid out for the season (which would later be horribly, horribly squandered).<BR/><BR/>I also prefer not to look at <I>Season 8</I> in an episodic format. Certainly "The Long Way Home" was written with the four-act TV structure, but I think that trying to figure out each individual "episode" is a little troublesome. A comic book series is a different animal than a television show in a few ways.<BR/><BR/>And on a much smaller note, I still hold to my belief that Amy was lying about some of the details of Warren's situation, because that's the only way I can rationalize it without completely derailing what happened in Season 7.<BR/><BR/>WOW that was long.<BR/><BR/>-MMatthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05910006954704396801noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-45671090534869238222008-02-14T13:12:00.000-08:002008-02-14T13:12:00.000-08:00pshand05@molloy.edupshand05@molloy.eduPatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-65431381147242066842008-02-14T09:43:00.000-08:002008-02-14T09:43:00.000-08:00Hi Patshand, I was wondering : How can I contact y...Hi Patshand, I was wondering : How can I contact you ? I didn't find your email anywere ?EmPanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08052134433149913638noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-78053688428503519422008-02-14T09:37:00.000-08:002008-02-14T09:37:00.000-08:00"Normal Again" is great. I don't like it.I'd have ..."Normal Again" is great. I don't like it.<BR/><BR/><BR/><BR/>I'd have liked it if they could've helped themselves from making the extra little final "what if she's still imagining everything after all?"-poke in the end. Every fantasy or sci-fi-show has at some point had an episode like this, and obviously, the difference is that Buffy did it really well. But I feel like the final little "what if..." is unnecessary for the exact same reasons the corny-with-intent-stuff in "Buffy Vs. Dracula" is - it makes that particular episode better, yes, but it cheapens the rest of the show. Putting a question point behind the credibility of an entire series to make one single episode inside of it a little better is not ever worth it, in my opinion.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-17917681188067107512008-02-13T00:26:00.000-08:002008-02-13T00:26:00.000-08:00Ditto on a lot of that, especially the last part. ...Ditto on a lot of that, especially the last part. Some discussion is always nice.<BR/><BR/>And "Smile Time" is great fun. Self-esteem is for everybody.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-16179690180019073292008-02-12T22:53:00.000-08:002008-02-12T22:53:00.000-08:00Smile Time?? You're putting SMILE TIME in your cat...Smile Time?? You're putting SMILE TIME in your category of inexcusable episodes?! Dude, honestly, I like your reviews, you're a smart guy, but in this instance you're crazy.<BR/><BR/>I guess I'm not going to try to write an essay here on why Smile Time is a great episode, but obviously a lot of people think it is, and, well, I'm with them.<BR/><BR/>In general, I really doubt you can draw a line in a principled way between "cheesy" and "inexcusably cheesy." It's just a matter of what works for you and what doesn't. To me, Doublemeat Palace is easily the most poorly executed episode of Buffy or Angel, and that's why it comes off as horrible rather than hilarious. Same for Beer Bad. I can't think of any other episodes that attain that level of awfulness, but maybe Killed by Death, Go Fish, Some Assembly Required, Beauty and the Beasts, and Life Serial strike me as sufficiently lacking in execution that they feel cheesy and lame to me.<BR/><BR/>The whole "suspension of disbelief" thing -- I lose my ability to suspend disbelief not when the writers go for cheesiness and it works, but when <I>whatever</I> they're going for just fails to work. So I'm in partial agreement with Loki in that I don't like it when episodes come along and mess with my ability to suspend disbelief and take the world seriously. But when that happens, I don't blame meta-humor; I blame poor execution.<BR/><BR/>I'm with Loki in not finding Superstar problematic. I mean, it's hard to believe Jonathan was able to cast such a massively world-altering spell, but starting from the assumption that he just stumbled across some sort of extraordinarily powerful scroll or whatever, the portrayal of the world as he made it does make sense to me. He's suave and admired and good at everything and has a couple of blonde twins to keep the bed warm -- and nobody in that world finds it surprising, which is part of what's so hilarious to us as we watch from our vantage points outside that world (we are outside of Jonathan's fictional world in a way that we do not generally feel that we are outside of Buffy's world).<BR/><BR/>Of course, once I start going in this direction I inevitably trip over Normal Again, which is just strange and unique and problematic and I've never been able to figure out <I>what</I> I think of it. But anyway, I've had more than enough to drink tonight and I'm going to bed now.<BR/><BR/>Love the blog, Pat. Glad to be getting into a bit of conversation in the comments.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06088465257647687654noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-5302929621355644402008-02-11T13:56:00.000-08:002008-02-11T13:56:00.000-08:00While I'm not crazy about "Superstar", I think it'...While I'm not crazy about "Superstar", I think it's okay, and it never struck me as among the show must cheesy stuff. I actually _like_ "I fall to pieces" a good bit, and never got how it apparently was so cheesy to everybody. How is anything in that episode more campy than, say, the basic notion of a vampire in the Slayerverse? "Smile Time" could very easily be cheesy, but the execution is so good that I buy it completely while watching it - and that's all it takes, really. The only element there that's really outrageous is the living puppets - and that's really not that far-fetched in a fantasy-universe like the Slayerverse. It's a rather ancient idea, human-like forms taking on a life of their own. So, since the episode takes ITSELF seriously, internally, *I* take it seriously. As for "Doublemeat Palace" and "Beer Bad" - I don't think those episodes had to be too cheesy in their basic premise. I think they just ended up that way in the actual execution. To me, BvD and Numero Cinco is in another category altogether. They poke fun at themselves while they go on. "Smile Time" might joke about the outrageousness of Angel being a puppet - but it doesn't joke about the basic premise of a world where this could happen. When it gets that removed and self-mocking, it starts to remove me from the world it takes place in and remind me I'm just watching a show. Which is not a good thing to do in the middle of an ongoing story.<BR/><BR/>I don't mind obvious meta-humour. But if you suddenly insert it in one episode of an otherwise plain, on-going story that's dependent on the world being real to have emotional impact on the viewer, and then expect to go on as usual in the next episode, then I really dislike it.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5984379880042174862.post-29917631046657383712008-02-11T13:26:00.000-08:002008-02-11T13:26:00.000-08:00There is cheesy and campy. A lot of season one fa...There is cheesy and campy. A lot of season one falls into that category, along with "Buffy vs. Dracula" and some individual demons (the bikers, the Loan Shark, etc).<BR/><BR/>However, there is a level that shouldn't be cross. When it is crossed, those episodes become RED ZONE EPISODES. There are five of those in the 'verse.<BR/><BR/>1. Beer Bad<BR/>2. Superstar<BR/>3. Doublemeat Palace (wasn't horrible, but the end takes it over the line)<BR/>4. The Cautionary Tale of Numero Cinco<BR/>5. Smile Time (The Fred/Wesley stuff almost pushes it back, but it's a hard task)<BR/><BR/>"I Fall to Pieces" is borderline. Those five can't really be excused, though.PatShandhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03304215370818359252noreply@blogger.com